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+--- Thread: Joao Carvalho (/showthread.php?tid=433)
RE: Is Carvalho Our Secret Weapon? - Redgirl - 27-02-2019
Hopefully they’ve gone back to the drawing board with him NG3 and he will comeback stronger.
I was encouraged to see him in the photo you posted of the team in the dressing room after Derby.
RE: Is Carvalho Our Secret Weapon? - ozzyten10 - 27-02-2019
Heavy pitches. Different tactics.
However, I wouldn’t be surprised to see him at the head of the diamond v Stoke as we match them up.
RE: Is Carvalho Our Secret Weapon? - Strawberry Avenger - 28-02-2019
(27-02-2019, 07:11 PM)ozzyten10 Wrote: Heavy pitches. Different tactics.
However, I wouldn’t be surprised to see him at the head of the diamond v Stoke as we match them up.
That's an idea. If he's ready. In theory, that position could be good for him. But he's got to retain the ball long enough to do some damage with it and not get pushed off too easy.
I wonder if Pele will get a shout in that position before Car'?
We'll see 'who' out the two is ready.
I'm curious about Pele though.
SA.
RE: Is Carv our secret weapon - zicorice - 02-03-2019
(27-02-2019, 01:35 PM)NG3 Wrote:(26-02-2019, 05:35 PM)stirred Wrote: Good to hear the players are actually being coached though
It was a 100% necessity, in this case. If someone hadn't started coaching the poor lad I'd have ended up with self-inflicted baldness, from pulling my hair out this season.
I've held back on these stats, until the mood became more positive, as I wanted fans behind the club, rather than squabbling over an individual, but our #10 is 8th, in this squad, when it comes to shots per game, behind Yates & Guédioura, amongst others.
A #10 should be top 5 in that stat, & certainly not behind deeper sitting midfielders & he's 9th in passing accuracy, another area he should be top 5.
In terms of actual number of passes he averages 32, which is 12th.
Of course a #10 isn't just about creativity, if you defend from the front, as all teams should, a #10 is also key to keeping the opposition locked in. Look at the game Monday night, Murphy & Yates shut down Huddlestone & because of that 60% of Derby's possession was with their defensive players, in their defensive third of the pitch, effectively neutering them.
Our #10 comes 16th in our squad when it comes to average tackles per game, 22nd when it comes to interceptions (Ryan Yates has already made more in total, in 20 games less), & Carvalho is 18th when it comes to blocking the ball.
He's also 3rd in our squad when it comes to being dispossessed, & 2nd when it comes to losing the ball through bad ball control.
Those stats are totally unacceptable for a #10, because they present the ball to the opposition far to often & provide no defensive line between the opposition & our deep lying midfielders, inviting pressure on to our team.
Essentially, when the opposition is in possession, we've been effectively playing with 10 men.
This should have been scouted before the player was signed & dealt with on the training ground in pre-season.
I don't blame the lad, he's 21, a stranger in a strange land, so he only knows what he knows, but our coaches let him down badly, at cost to this club.
I'm sorry. I just composed a very long (appropriately sanctimonious and full of self importance) reply to this. In my haste I deleted it as I proof read it and can't be bothered to type it again. In short (Well alot shorter), stats out of context tell you very little. Keogh had most touches, most successful passes and highest passing accuracy on Monday night and I don't remember crapping myself every time He got the ball. (Sheep fans did though).
For all I know NG3 you may be the 1st team analyst posting under an assumed name, but to say we effectively played with 10 men when out of possession is an appalling sleight on a player who worked his nuts off closing down opponents. There are clearly people who look up to you on here as you may (or may not?) have some insights inside the club and your views are rarely (If ever) challenged and debated. If you are too portray yourself as such, then in a quote from spiderman "with great power comes great responsibility". You have very neatly and in an articulate manner done a complete hatchet job on our record signing. At times you are intelligent enough to actually come across as a plant from close to the day to day goings on at the club, but the way some of your posts have come across in recent times have been somewhat condescending-not just to me. I hate to get involved in internet squabbles, but following the post on Carvalho I felt someone had to challenge this. I respect all opinions, but I also recognise the potential for borderline indoctrination to filter in. For the record, I loved watching Carvalho play, but 100% support MON and the more pragmatic approach required to achieve what we all want. I hope this doesn't sound like a personal attack, it is not meant too, but I like this forum and don't want to see it slide down a slippery slope.
Hand grenade dropped, off to get ready for my train now......
RE: Is Carvalho Our Secret Weapon? - Strawberry Avenger - 02-03-2019
On today's performance?
No.
SA.
RE: Is Carv our secret weapon - Strawberry Avenger - 02-03-2019
(02-03-2019, 12:29 PM)NG3 Wrote:(02-03-2019, 11:01 AM)zicorice Wrote: ....to say we effectively played with 10 men when out of possession is an appalling sleight on a player who worked his nuts off closing down opponents.
You may take offence at the wording of that particular statement, but I ask you to read those stats again to see it's not a sleight, but a statement of fact.
Running around "working your nuts off" doesn't actually guarantee that a person's making an impactful contribution, & that's what a football player is paid to do.
Martin could play me next week & I can promise you that I would give 100% & "work my nuts off", but Martin won't play me next week because that's not enough.
I also take offence at the claims of a "hatchet job", I held these stats back to protect the guy & even presented them in what I considered a more sympathetic way for him.
Quote:For the record, I loved watching Carvalho play
For the record so do I, which is why I have continuously defended him, but admiring a player, or defending a player doesn't negate the need to look at a bigger picture & we can all see the bigger picture, & the fact that he needs to do a lot of work on his game.
The manager has said it, the pundits have said it, the stats say it & that is why I presented the stats, not as some ridiculous hatchet job, but so that fans who have been throwing toys out of their prams could see it too & understand the process & reasoning.
You're right, with great power comes great responsibility, but even without power there is responsibility, responsibility to be honest, accurate & to help others see the bigger picture.
You're "angry" at me for telling a truth that you don't like, but surely as a fan of this club you have a responsibility too, a responsibility to support the correct decisions, even if that "breaks your heart" sometimes.
This club has sacked friends of mine before, loaned or sold others off to far flung crap holes, & they were real friends, not just people I enjoyed watching, or a Shoot! magazine poster on a bedroom wall & I have had to reconcile myself to those things & learn to look at the bigger picture.
In this case the bigger picture is laid out in the comments you are attacking, it might not be a bigger picture that you like, hence your attack on me, but it's the picture the club has to work with & working with that picture is the only way of redeeming Carvalho's career here.
We can pretend everything I've said isn't true, we can bury our heads in the sand & pretend everything is wonderful, but if the club did that then Carvalho would not learn, not develop & would burn out by Christmas again next season & by the summer after that he would be sold off on the cheap.
This sleight, this hatchet job you see is actually me fighting for the kids career here, just as Martin & Roy working on him in training, rather than playing him every week, is them trying to save his career at Forest, which is the purpose of the stats, so that people can understand that & support it.
NG is on point, here.
SA.
RE: Is Carv our secret weapon - zicorice - 02-03-2019
(02-03-2019, 06:44 PM)Strawberry Avenger Wrote:On train and cold. I told myself when making a couple of points re original stats post, I would leave it regardless of the predictable condescending reply. Post game, following his error, I find myself biting. I am gutted we lost, if he had come on and scored a hatrick I would be buzzing and not gloating. In real time it looked like he was bringing down a crappy ball from the sky, which hit his standing foot and went away from him, can happen to anyone and probably is no reflection on his recent or previous coaching.(02-03-2019, 12:29 PM)NG3 Wrote:(02-03-2019, 11:01 AM)zicorice Wrote: ....to say we effectively played with 10 men when out of possession is an appalling sleight on a player who worked his nuts off closing down opponents.
You may take offence at the wording of that particular statement, but I ask you to read those stats again to see it's not a sleight, but a statement of fact.
Running around "working your nuts off" doesn't actually guarantee that a person's making an impactful contribution, & that's what a football player is paid to do.
Martin could play me next week & I can promise you that I would give 100% & "work my nuts off", but Martin won't play me next week because that's not enough.
I also take offence at the claims of a "hatchet job", I held these stats back to protect the guy & even presented them in what I considered a more sympathetic way for him.
Quote:For the record, I loved watching Carvalho play
For the record so do I, which is why I have continuously defended him, but admiring a player, or defending a player doesn't negate the need to look at a bigger picture & we can all see the bigger picture, & the fact that he needs to do a lot of work on his game.
The manager has said it, the pundits have said it, the stats say it & that is why I presented the stats, not as some ridiculous hatchet job, but so that fans who have been throwing toys out of their prams could see it too & understand the process & reasoning.
You're right, with great power comes great responsibility, but even without power there is responsibility, responsibility to be honest, accurate & to help others see the bigger picture.
You're "angry" at me for telling a truth that you don't like, but surely as a fan of this club you have a responsibility too, a responsibility to support the correct decisions, even if that "breaks your heart" sometimes.
This club has sacked friends of mine before, loaned or sold others off to far flung crap holes, & they were real friends, not just people I enjoyed watching, or a Shoot! magazine poster on a bedroom wall & I have had to reconcile myself to those things & learn to look at the bigger picture.
In this case the bigger picture is laid out in the comments you are attacking, it might not be a bigger picture that you like, hence your attack on me, but it's the picture the club has to work with & working with that picture is the only way of redeeming Carvalho's career here.
We can pretend everything I've said isn't true, we can bury our heads in the sand & pretend everything is wonderful, but if the club did that then Carvalho would not learn, not develop & would burn out by Christmas again next season & by the summer after that he would be sold off on the cheap.
This sleight, this hatchet job you see is actually me fighting for the kids career here, just as Martin & Roy working on him in training, rather than playing him every week, is them trying to save his career at Forest, which is the purpose of the stats, so that people can understand that & support it.
NG is on point, here.
SA.
I am sure that you "fighting for the kids career here" will ensure he sleeps better tonight. I also made the point on the phrase you half quoted that I 100% support all that MON is doing and the pragmatism he is displaying to achieve the goal we all want.
I am unsure what real friends of yours being flogged off to real crap holes has to do with you highlighting certain stats? Thank you for pointing out to me that running your nuts off doesn't equate to a meaningful contribution, but unless I actually am thick, you were referring to when we were NOT in possession. Running your nuts off, closing down (high press being the current trendy word) is pretty much all a number 10 can do to force errors or not? I have not once thrown my toys out of the pram because Carvalho isnt playing. I have actually stated the lad needs a breather (at least we agree on that?).
Anyway there are other things that I could say but what's the point? Perception is truth, and despite having worked for four different clubs in my time (yes including Forest in Paul Hart and Nick Marshall days) my opinion is no more or no less valid than anyone else's. My language skills however are fairly advanced and as someone once said to me "words are important, choose them carefully". I was not angry, was certainly not angry that Carvalho wasn't playing, nor have I buried my head in the sand, nor have I said the stats weren't true, merely that your interpretation of them and the way it was written added up to a hatchet job. Sorry if you are offended by this, but my colleagues on the train on the way to game also interpreted your words in the same way as I did.
The last word on this will no doubt go to someone else as I won't be adding to this specific part of this thread, regardless of responses. You have made your points, I have made mine, others can read them if they care enough make their own minds up. On point or whatever. Peace.
RE: Is Carvalho Our Secret Weapon? - Tricky - 03-03-2019
I personally think Mendez had AK's pants down when he approached him about Carvalho, Goncalvez and Dias! Not one of them have really brought anything to the table and to be honest we have wasted a lot of money. None of them are hard tackling ball winners, their passing is at times woeful and apart from the occasional decent through ball have not contributed enough to be in the side. I know Dias has gone, and i for one was delighted we got rid!
I feel that Carvalho is to us what Oliver Burke was to RB Liepzig, a punt on the words of an agent rather than the prolonged conclusion of some decent scouting.
For those of you that are fans of Carv's, i respect that. Sadly, i am not. I feel, (and this is just my opinion, and nobody else has to accept that) that the £13m price tag on the lad has had an effect on supporters opinions of him. I am pretty certain that if we had picked him up for say £1m, fans wouldv'e been on his back over some of his performances. But because he is the club record signing, are almost wishing his performances are warranting the money we paid for him.
Take Ben Osborne for example, that lad gets stuck in week after week, ok sometimes he makes errors, but he is getting stuck in! His running throughout the game is exemplary. Look at the amount of flak he regularly gets, which i personally don't understand. Yet Carvalho will lose the ball and make no attempt at winning the ball back. He pulls out of tackles, and i have not seen him win one aerial duel for the ball. It just seems to me that the lad is scared of getting hurt if he goes into a challenge. Interestingly, that is supported by NG3's stats, whereby he comes in at 16th in the squad for average tackles per game!
Like everyone else, i was saying hes a young lad in a foreign country, give him time and he will show us what he can do. We are now in March and I am still waiting. We cannot afford to be carrying players at this stage of the season, especially as we do still have a chance of a sniff of the play offs.
I don't like slagging off our own players, irrespective of how good they are or not, but in this case, i just feel that we were mugged over when we signed the lad.
Please prove me wrong Carvs
RE: Is Carvalho Our Secret Weapon? - ozzyten10 - 03-03-2019
Don’t disagree with all points raised about carvalho. Excellent potential but not a championship player.
RE: Is Carvalho Our Secret Weapon? - the jock - 03-03-2019
i remember a bloke last august coming out of the ground saying that come xmas none of the Portuguese will be in the team and people laughed at him and said dont be daft
RE: Is Carvalho Our Secret Weapon? - Maltared - 03-03-2019
(03-03-2019, 11:03 AM)the jock Wrote: i remember a bloke last august coming out of the ground saying that come xmas none of the Portuguese will be in the team and people laughed at him and said dont be daft
I m the one... ?
RE: Is Carvalho Our Secret Weapon? - ac_vodka - 03-03-2019
I remember saying the same thing admittedly not to anyone on here - personally I`d try and sell.