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RE: Your Thoughts On The Current Nottingham Forest Manager - Strawberry Avenger - 07-05-2021
(07-05-2021, 08:39 AM)TheGreenMan Wrote: I never understand the ‘we overachieved’ or even this season teams like Barnsley have overachieved by reaching the play offs. You finish in the league table where you deserve to finish.
Barnsley. There's always one outlier. Though they did recruit a pretty good striker. Did they get lucky? Or did they just recruit better? Our striker was buried under 3 injuries. They had their 'Lolley' uninjured in Mowett who supplied the creative guile? And made good use of the circumstances with their high octane subs strategy?
Expectations. Well, that's relative to the sun. Expectations vary from the owners to the fans. We all want success. I felt we over achieved last season with the 'lucky 6' recruitment of Talisman Sow. Each time he got hurt? My expectations changed. I didn't think we'd do it without a fit destroyer in DCM.
Last season will live in infamy for the complete capitulation. The strategy carry over to this season utterly torpedo'd any chance we had of 'over achieving' again.
(Losing Watson, Cash, Grabban to injury, Grabban to injury 3 times, Sow to injury, Worrall to injury twice. That Hughton managed to stabilise the side with the returning Worrall, Sow and Grabban along with urgent January transfer business is a minor miracle.)
The owners expect top 6. They didn't achieve that last season or this. Or before. Once is ignorance. Twice could be unfortunate accident. Three. Four. Five times? It becomes a pattern of failure that I hope we break by sticking with Hughton.
We simply have to recruit better quality players who can put it in the onion bag.
I'm optimistic that we have the right man to recruit and promote 'Perennial Basket Case Forest.'
SA.
RE: Your Thoughts On The Current Nottingham Forest Manager - Strawberry Avenger - 07-05-2021
(07-05-2021, 11:55 AM)PsychoStanleyStone Wrote:(07-05-2021, 08:39 AM)TheGreenMan Wrote: I never understand the ‘we overachieved’ or even this season teams like Barnsley have overachieved by reaching the play offs. You finish in the league table where you deserve to finish.
if CH manages the team with the same template ((s) though let's face it, it was 1 fixed template), a template which is fixed is actually anti management, a fixed template nullifies pretty much everything, the same system every single game, that is really like treating every team as being superior, most decisions he did make were reactive. the subs and captains armband and depth of squad in certain areas weren't deemed of any significant benefit. Same for setting up differant for differant opponents, we set up exactly the same, this is totally unacceptable to me and more akin to a template for mediocrity and disappointment than excellence.
Look, we have to make some sort of sense of last season, some of us, particularly me think the squad was overall capable of much more. The moral, team spirit, motivation is the managers job and that worked but only really as far as not getting relegated, same with the 'template', maybe it was a managerial masterstroke, maybe the plan was 'just don't get relegated' if so i'd like to know, it could be the case, maybe has to be.
What will change next season? Besides some promoted new kids on the block and other teams getting there acts together, and being highly motivated and chomping at the bit to get one over on us. I can imagine that many teams will be happy with point at the City Ground which could mean booing at HT and not enough to fire up the fans
If the squad was more capable Forest would have finished higher. It's irrational to expect the main striker who was injured 3 times to clobber 20 goals in again. That he scored 6 is something. It defies reason to expect Lolley to bang in goals or supply assists when he's injured. His legs have a particular condition which explained himself. Or to expect Mighten to shoulder the burden as a fledgling to out do Lolley. Or Sow or Worrall to provide a spine to results when they've both been injured.
Forest seem pretty motivated to me. But Grabban can't defy physics. The last year has compounded whatever management issues Lolley and Grabban (and Sow's...) bodies have. Grabban is old for a striker. His body is telling him it can't do an abnormally congested fixture schedule.
The Forest horse was well and truly flogged last year, and when it collapsed we thought we'd flog it again this year. Anybody who thinks different ought to try running for 90 minutes+ 3 times a week in a congested (abnormally so) fixture schedule. And see how their body holds up.
Oh, it's the same for everybody. It is and? No it aint. Some teams came down from the Premier. Some teams had the same manager for 2 or 3 seasons. Some teams built upon last year's recruitment. Some teams didn't throw 14 largely mediocre players together. Some teams actually had pre-seasons.
What is the notion that Forest could 'do better' based on? Have people been paying attention for the last year?
The template is stable. And thank the Footballing Gods for that.
And good to add goal scorers to. Such as recruiting quality striker for the 1st time in 3 years. Adding guile. Pace. Athleticism. Goals. Supply. More goals. Goals from all round the pitch.
What will change next season? At least Hughton critics will be criticise him based upon something tangible and rational. Like what? Having his own pre-season and full Summer transfer window.
Some fans boo. They pays their money.
SA.
RE: Your Thoughts On The Current Nottingham Forest Manager - PsychoStanleyStone - 07-05-2021
(07-05-2021, 03:46 PM)Strawberry Avenger Wrote:(07-05-2021, 11:55 AM)PsychoStanleyStone Wrote:(07-05-2021, 08:39 AM)TheGreenMan Wrote: I never understand the ‘we overachieved’ or even this season teams like Barnsley have overachieved by reaching the play offs. You finish in the league table where you deserve to finish.
if CH manages the team with the same template ((s) though let's face it, it was 1 fixed template), a template which is fixed is actually anti management, a fixed template nullifies pretty much everything, the same system every single game, that is really like treating every team as being superior, most decisions he did make were reactive. the subs and captains armband and depth of squad in certain areas weren't deemed of any significant benefit. Same for setting up differant for differant opponents, we set up exactly the same, this is totally unacceptable to me and more akin to a template for mediocrity and disappointment than excellence.
Look, we have to make some sort of sense of last season, some of us, particularly me think the squad was overall capable of much more. The moral, team spirit, motivation is the managers job and that worked but only really as far as not getting relegated, same with the 'template', maybe it was a managerial masterstroke, maybe the plan was 'just don't get relegated' if so i'd like to know, it could be the case, maybe has to be.
What will change next season? Besides some promoted new kids on the block and other teams getting there acts together, and being highly motivated and chomping at the bit to get one over on us. I can imagine that many teams will be happy with point at the City Ground which could mean booing at HT and not enough to fire up the fans
If the squad was more capable Forest would have finished higher.
Grabban is old for a striker. His body is telling him it can't do an abnormally congested fixture schedule.
running for 90 minutes+ 3 times a week in a congested (abnormally so) fixture schedule. And see how their body holds up.
Some teams didn't throw 14 largely mediocre players together.
What is the notion that Forest could 'do better' based on? Have people been paying attention for the last year?
The template is stable. And thank the Footballing Gods for that.
And good to add goal scorers to. Such as recruiting quality striker for the 1st time in 3 years. Adding guile. Pace. Athleticism. Goals. Supply. More goals. Goals from all round the pitch.
What will change next season? At least Hughton critics will be criticise him based upon something tangible and rational. Like what? Having his own pre-season and full Summer transfer window.
Some fans boo. They pays their money.
SA.
can we agree that it was a dire season? same formation and generally same players until they broke down? no impact with subs? Grabban good choice for captain? Grabban is a good player but horrificly poorly deployed by Hughton, usually over played when clearly his best 10 minutes was as a sub v Sheff Wed, he looked total class and created and scored his own goal, totally brimming with confidence ... Hughton ignores things that work, similar with Knocky he changed games from the bench, but generally Hughton makes little on non effect changes.
Hughton had back up for most positions but he would play the same players, same formation .. every 3 days like you say, horrendous squad rotation and even obviously tired and on the verge of breaking down players he didn't sub
We are reviewing the last 40 games not the last 4 or 14, 40 f***g games man
What are you reviewing? 4 seasons ago with a positive set up and manager in a mentally positive environment, at the moment as in last 40 games all we have seen is a non believing zombie
Keep imagining everything we have witnessed won't happen again ... when nothing will change, the players won't be profoundly differant next season, good managers over perform, mediocre managers under perform and manage the 3rd fewest goals in the whole league
RE: Your Thoughts On The Current Nottingham Forest Manager - wassy04 - 07-05-2021
(07-05-2021, 08:39 AM)TheGreenMan Wrote: I never understand the ‘we overachieved’ or even this season teams like Barnsley have overachieved by reaching the play offs. You finish in the league table where you deserve to finish.
It means you have achieved more than expected based on quality of the squad on paper and pre-season expectation. This is the second time you've said this, it's pretty easy to understand. There is nothing controversial in saying Barnsley have overachieved this season. What you are expected to do and what you deserve are completely different things, not sure why they are being compared.
In fact the difference between the two is literally the building block of sport.
RE: Your Thoughts On The Current Nottingham Forest Manager - TheGreenMan - 07-05-2021
(07-05-2021, 05:02 PM)wassy04 Wrote:(07-05-2021, 08:39 AM)TheGreenMan Wrote: I never understand the ‘we overachieved’ or even this season teams like Barnsley have overachieved by reaching the play offs. You finish in the league table where you deserve to finish.
It means you have achieved more than expected based on quality of the squad on paper and pre-season expectation. This is the second time you've said this, it's pretty easy to understand. There is nothing controversial in saying Barnsley have overachieved this season. What you are expected to do and what you deserve are completely different things, not sure why they are being compared.
In fact the difference between the two is literally the building block of sport.
Don’t agree at all pal, but you carry on...
RE: Your Thoughts On The Current Nottingham Forest Manager - wassy04 - 07-05-2021
(07-05-2021, 08:33 AM)Salvatore Matrecano Wrote:(06-05-2021, 11:40 PM)Sabricadabra Wrote: Win rate isn’t the most important stat. It’s a cherry picked unbalanced stat without also quoting loss rate.
The most important stat is the number of points accrued and position in the table. Everything else is secondary.
We over achieved last season and were in free fall at the beginning of this. Hughton has stabilised the slide towards relegation, brought some much needed defensive resilience, and built a platform to build on for next season.
We are a work in progress, 7 months into his tenure, but it’s been a solid and encouraging start.
Agree with all of that Sabri apart from the we over achieved last season bit. Ive seen that said by a number of people and I think it’s rubbish, we finished 7th and thats where we deserved to be. Sure we sh*thoused our way to a few wins but were unlucky other games too. But importantly there were some wins against the top teams Fulham, Leeds etc where we were utterly dominant and reached a level far higher than we ever achieved this season. For that reason I get annoyed when people slag off your namesake, he did remarkably well. Hughton is a slow work in progress and I hope next season will be much better.
Where you deserve to finish and where you expect to finish are completely different thing. The fact you suggest he did a "remarkable job", would in fact suggest you also think he did better than expected, ie overachieved from the base he started with.
I think we deserved to finish 7th sure however I don't believe we had a great team either. I think we won a lot of close games that could've gone either way, this season a lot of those games where they were close went the other way. I think with the players we had Sabri did a great job getting us so close to the playoffs, including those great performances vs Fulham, Leeds, Swansea. This is what is meant by overachieved.
RE: Your Thoughts On The Current Nottingham Forest Manager - wassy04 - 07-05-2021
(07-05-2021, 05:05 PM)TheGreenMan Wrote:(07-05-2021, 05:02 PM)wassy04 Wrote:(07-05-2021, 08:39 AM)TheGreenMan Wrote: I never understand the ‘we overachieved’ or even this season teams like Barnsley have overachieved by reaching the play offs. You finish in the league table where you deserve to finish.
It means you have achieved more than expected based on quality of the squad on paper and pre-season expectation. This is the second time you've said this, it's pretty easy to understand. There is nothing controversial in saying Barnsley have overachieved this season. What you are expected to do and what you deserve are completely different things, not sure why they are being compared.
In fact the difference between the two is literally the building block of sport.
Don’t agree at all pal, but you carry on...
Overachieve - perform better or achieve a greater degree of success than expected.
Do you not agree with a dictionary?
RE: Your Thoughts On The Current Nottingham Forest Manager - TheGreenMan - 07-05-2021
(07-05-2021, 05:11 PM)wassy04 Wrote:(07-05-2021, 05:05 PM)TheGreenMan Wrote:(07-05-2021, 05:02 PM)wassy04 Wrote:(07-05-2021, 08:39 AM)TheGreenMan Wrote: I never understand the ‘we overachieved’ or even this season teams like Barnsley have overachieved by reaching the play offs. You finish in the league table where you deserve to finish.
It means you have achieved more than expected based on quality of the squad on paper and pre-season expectation. This is the second time you've said this, it's pretty easy to understand. There is nothing controversial in saying Barnsley have overachieved this season. What you are expected to do and what you deserve are completely different things, not sure why they are being compared.
In fact the difference between the two is literally the building block of sport.
Don’t agree at all pal, but you carry on...
Overachieve - perform better or achieve a greater degree of success than expected.
Do you not agree with a dictionary?
Patronising now are we??
RE: Your Thoughts On The Current Nottingham Forest Manager - wassy04 - 07-05-2021
(07-05-2021, 05:58 PM)TheGreenMan Wrote:(07-05-2021, 05:11 PM)wassy04 Wrote:(07-05-2021, 05:05 PM)TheGreenMan Wrote:(07-05-2021, 05:02 PM)wassy04 Wrote:(07-05-2021, 08:39 AM)TheGreenMan Wrote: I never understand the ‘we overachieved’ or even this season teams like Barnsley have overachieved by reaching the play offs. You finish in the league table where you deserve to finish.
It means you have achieved more than expected based on quality of the squad on paper and pre-season expectation. This is the second time you've said this, it's pretty easy to understand. There is nothing controversial in saying Barnsley have overachieved this season. What you are expected to do and what you deserve are completely different things, not sure why they are being compared.
In fact the difference between the two is literally the building block of sport.
Don’t agree at all pal, but you carry on...
Overachieve - perform better or achieve a greater degree of success than expected.
Do you not agree with a dictionary?
Patronising now are we??
You used the phrase "you carry on", that's about as patronising as it gets.
RE: Your Thoughts On The Current Nottingham Forest Manager - stirred - 07-05-2021
I don’t think we overachieved last season. I thought Sabri was getting the most out of the players to begin with, but we didn’t have depth and the lack of reinforcements in January hurt us badly. Couldn’t say we weren’t in the best 7 over the course of the season, and there wasn’t more than 6 squads I’d have swapped ours for.
This season is my issue, because I think we’ve underperformed. I see QPR in 9th, 13 points ahead of us, and I wouldn’t take their squad over ours. Boro 10th, then Millwall, Luton, Preston...I think we have better playing resources and probably more financial resources than all of them. Yet we’re lower in the table. So I think we’ve underperformed. Is that controversial?
Now why have we underperformed? I think a better manager would have had us significantly higher in the table, I think that was the biggest factor. Not being defeatist about coming into a team in poor form, but grabbing it by the scruff of the neck, recognising you have some good players and taking it on.
RE: Your Thoughts On The Current Nottingham Forest Manager - tugger2018 - 07-05-2021
I do remember a lot of matches mid last season where we won by the odd goal where we probably scored from of only the 1or 2 chances we had in them games !
RE: Your Thoughts On The Current Nottingham Forest Manager - wassy04 - 08-05-2021
(07-05-2021, 10:06 PM)stirred Wrote: I don’t think we overachieved last season. I thought Sabri was getting the most out of the players to begin with, but we didn’t have depth and the lack of reinforcements in January hurt us badly. Couldn’t say we weren’t in the best 7 over the course of the season, and there wasn’t more than 6 squads I’d have swapped ours for.
This season is my issue, because I think we’ve underperformed. I see QPR in 9th, 13 points ahead of us, and I wouldn’t take their squad over ours. Boro 10th, then Millwall, Luton, Preston...I think we have better playing resources and probably more financial resources than all of them. Yet we’re lower in the table. So I think we’ve underperformed. Is that controversial?
Now why have we underperformed? I think a better manager would have had us significantly higher in the table, I think that was the biggest factor. Not being defeatist about coming into a team in poor form, but grabbing it by the scruff of the neck, recognising you have some good players and taking it on.
I would've put us about 10th on paper last year and probably around 12th this year so yes agree with underachiever.
You're completely ignoring the massive mitigating factors for the manager. Ie losing the best 5/6 players from the previous season to injury or sale. That's a pretty big loss to any team, would you not agree?
Also, you add 6-8 points on for not losing the first four games and we'd have been around QPR all season.
I don't think we have a better squad than Boro, Preston or Millwall. Just googled it our wage bill had us in 11th, so that's probably a good place to start in terms of pre season rankings. I also think most would agree some of that has not been well spent, arter, jenkinson etc so arguably lower than that.
So I really don't get why some people think we have this amazing team that would've easily made playoffs under another manager