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RE: Vote Of Confidence - Salvatore Matrecano - 26-04-2021
(26-04-2021, 11:16 AM)Strawberry Avenger Wrote: . With better recruitment from Sabri.
SA.
Thats right it was all Sabri’s fault. :rolleyes:
RE: Vote Of Confidence - Sniffer Dog (Admin) - 26-04-2021
Something else we shouldn't underestimate is the psychological state of the players and management who were still at the club when this season started following on from what happened at the end of last season. The player's were absolutely psychologically ruined.
I dare say that if Sabri had stayed we would have been relegated although we will never know that for sure.
I think some are underestimating just what a very tough job Hughton had on his hands at the time when he first arrived. In the circumstances I think he's done a pretty good job to be fair to him.
RE: Vote Of Confidence - Strawberry Avenger - 26-04-2021
(26-04-2021, 11:22 AM)Salvatore Matrecano Wrote:(26-04-2021, 11:16 AM)Strawberry Avenger Wrote: . With better recruitment from Sabri.
SA.
Thats right it was all Sabri’s fault. :rolleyes:
Yep. Spanked 6 times. Can we pin that on Hughton as well? (Perhaps if Hughton had actually brought in his own players and had a pre-season for those 6 games we can add some points on to Hughton's and Forest's tally for this season. Which would easily see Forest mid-table plus. Certainly higher than the drought of Sabri's last half season or his shocking start to the season. If we'd kept Sabri? We'd have been heading down.)
Who brought in the players, Sal? :P
Who did the pre-season?
Who brought in the course correcting players in Jan'?
Simple questions.
SA.
RE: Vote Of Confidence - Strawberry Avenger - 26-04-2021
(26-04-2021, 11:33 AM)Sniffer Dog Wrote: Something else we shouldn't underestimate is the psychological state of the players and management who were still at the club when this season started following on from what happened at the end of last season. The player's were absolutely psychologically ruined.
I dare say that if Sabri had stayed we would have been relegated although we will never know that for sure.
I think some are underestimating just what a very tough job Hughton had on his hands at the time when he first arrived. In the circumstances I think he's done a pretty good job to be fair to him.
Fair and reasoned post, Sniff.
Relegated. No doubt. Forest were getting pummelled easily in those opening games. Easily undone with 'route 1' football. He'd been found out. High press. Cross. Bang. Goal. Forest or Sabri's Forest had no answer. I'm not surprised the owner pulled the trigger.
Our soft recruiting for our fullbacks has been crucified early on and consistently targeted by opposing teams. I expect Hughton to address this aspect in the Summer.
The real culprits of this season's malaise are easy to pin point. Look to the pre-season. Look to the recruitment. Look to the confidence building team talks from last season. When your manager is sounding like a lost sheep you know the team are in deep, deep trouble.
Rebuilding of confidence in football is no small feat. It's a very fragile thing.
An insightful post.
SA.
RE: Vote Of Confidence - Widdow - 26-04-2021
(26-04-2021, 11:33 AM)Sniffer Dog Wrote: Something else we shouldn't underestimate is the psychological state of the players and management who were still at the club when this season started following on from what happened at the end of last season. The player's were absolutely psychologically ruined.
I dare say that if Sabri had stayed we would have been relegated although we will never know that for sure.
I think some are underestimating just what a very tough job Hughton had on his hands at the time when he first arrived. In the circumstances I think he's done a pretty good job to be fair to him.
So, bar 4 games he had a whole season to get players motivated, and now they lacking anything but motivation, plus 15 player who never had the issue of what happened last season.
I dare sat, if we recruited a different manager to CH, we may have been fighting for top 6 rather than in a relegation battle.
Every manager in the league has a tough job, and unfortunately the same folk who recruited him, have been responsible for a bringing in shit load of crap players. Sabri managed to get a tune out of them (pre lockdown) last season, CH hasnt really.
For a team like we have, we shouldnt have been anywhere near the bottom, and CH hasnt done much to improve things and his football is dire (something this detractor warned you about when he was appointed)
RE: Vote Of Confidence - Widdow - 26-04-2021
(26-04-2021, 11:16 AM)Strawberry Avenger Wrote:(26-04-2021, 09:53 AM)Widdow Wrote: Sack now.
People talk about giving him the whole season, well he has had a practically a whole season bar 4 games at the start. He has had two transfer windows (albeit not too long in the summer, but enough time to bring in one of his old boys in Knockeart).
Our performances seem to be getting worse not better, he plays players who i am not sure how they earned shirt (freeman picked again on saturday just for starters). He has made us defensive, but still let in goals, and when we do hard to come back from and win. Therefore after 42 games we are where we deserve to be. If SHeff Wed hadnt had 6 points deducted, things could be closer.
A phrase CH likes to use, first and foremost, has anyone seen an improvement in a team who just missed out of play offs but started the season badly? It was not like the Barnsley manager who took over at the same time, who took a team just avoided relegation and took them to the play offs.
For all his experience, he just cant get a consistent tune out of the (SABRI) players at his disposal. Other managers have been sacked with better records than CH Drawn 15, Lost 14 and Won just 13, or in other words a dismal 1.4 games a match and a 31% win rate.
What are the signs he will do any better in the next season, cause he did it before, well he didnt do it at Norwich or Newcastle.
Only positive is he knows the players now, he knows the club and what's required to get us fighting for top 6, that's the bare minimum, and that was his aim at beginning of his tenure this season. He failed miserably, and if we keep him, it will no doubt be more passionless, dour football and mid table obscurity, but hey he did do it in the 3rd season for Brighton!
And do you think Norwich's Mr. Farker would have got this Sabri squad higher than 15th in his 1st season in charge with no pre-season and no recruitment apart from a band aid January window?
Stats you quote. Many of those draws were very close. Could have been wins. With better recruitment from Sabri.
SA.
Maybe he could, he plays a different brand of football. Maybe the Barnlsey manager could have done better job
And Sabri, recruitment lol
And many of those draws could have been losses, your point? as we never played well in many of them?
RE: Vote Of Confidence - Sniffer Dog (Admin) - 26-04-2021
(26-04-2021, 11:44 AM)Widdow Wrote:(26-04-2021, 11:33 AM)Sniffer Dog Wrote: Something else we shouldn't underestimate is the psychological state of the players and management who were still at the club when this season started following on from what happened at the end of last season. The player's were absolutely psychologically ruined.
I dare say that if Sabri had stayed we would have been relegated although we will never know that for sure.
I think some are underestimating just what a very tough job Hughton had on his hands at the time when he first arrived. In the circumstances I think he's done a pretty good job to be fair to him.
I dare sat, if we recruited a different manager to CH, we may have been fighting for top 6 rather than in a relegation battle.
I dare say that if we had recruited a different manager to CH we may have been relegated.
RE: Vote Of Confidence - Strawberry Avenger - 26-04-2021
(26-04-2021, 11:45 AM)Widdow Wrote:(26-04-2021, 11:16 AM)Strawberry Avenger Wrote:(26-04-2021, 09:53 AM)Widdow Wrote: Sack now.
People talk about giving him the whole season, well he has had a practically a whole season bar 4 games at the start. He has had two transfer windows (albeit not too long in the summer, but enough time to bring in one of his old boys in Knockeart).
Our performances seem to be getting worse not better, he plays players who i am not sure how they earned shirt (freeman picked again on saturday just for starters). He has made us defensive, but still let in goals, and when we do hard to come back from and win. Therefore after 42 games we are where we deserve to be. If SHeff Wed hadnt had 6 points deducted, things could be closer.
A phrase CH likes to use, first and foremost, has anyone seen an improvement in a team who just missed out of play offs but started the season badly? It was not like the Barnsley manager who took over at the same time, who took a team just avoided relegation and took them to the play offs.
For all his experience, he just cant get a consistent tune out of the (SABRI) players at his disposal. Other managers have been sacked with better records than CH Drawn 15, Lost 14 and Won just 13, or in other words a dismal 1.4 games a match and a 31% win rate.
What are the signs he will do any better in the next season, cause he did it before, well he didnt do it at Norwich or Newcastle.
Only positive is he knows the players now, he knows the club and what's required to get us fighting for top 6, that's the bare minimum, and that was his aim at beginning of his tenure this season. He failed miserably, and if we keep him, it will no doubt be more passionless, dour football and mid table obscurity, but hey he did do it in the 3rd season for Brighton!
And do you think Norwich's Mr. Farker would have got this Sabri squad higher than 15th in his 1st season in charge with no pre-season and no recruitment apart from a band aid January window?
Stats you quote. Many of those draws were very close. Could have been wins. With better recruitment from Sabri.
SA.
Maybe he could, he plays a different brand of football. Maybe the Barnlsey manager could have done better job
And Sabri, recruitment lol
And many of those draws could have been losses, your point? as we never played well in many of them?
Forest did play well against Derby. They did play very well against Swansea. Tight games.
The point is with Hughton's own recruitment (you know, finding those 'better attacking suppliers and scorers of goals...) you can turn tight games into wins.
The Championship is tight. The only two teams really imposing themselves on the autos both came down from the Premiership with all the aces that affords.
What different brand of football are you alluding to, Widdow? Warburton's tippy tappy champagne football which Hughton dispatched with Forest's best attacking display of the season? How many Championship clubs are playing this mythical brand of superior football?
Which teams, Widdow?
And Sabri's recruitment. I'll agree with you there. It WAS laughable. But it's proven no laughing matter this season, eh?
You mention Barnsley. The one outlier in the top 6. There's always one. But how many others are there? However, let's use that example. They have a striker that has a release clause for how much? And when was he recruited? And Mowitt? (Guess it shows you that Sabri should have recruited better for the strikers and wingers?). The rest of the top 6 have had continuity of government over chopping and changing Forest.
You can laugh all you like. But Hughton hasn't had chance to pre-season a team. Or bring in his 'team' of players. For a poster who seems quite knowledge about the quality players out there, you seem happy for Hughton to take the rap for all the 14 players he didn't bring in and have been pretty much pounded by most posters on here. They're crap but it's Hughton's fault their crap and not top 6 when Sabri couldn't keep them top 6 and he brought them in.
Perhaps Hughton could have had Warburton's free flowing sieve like football to take Forest's relegation save down to the last game and the last goal for the season?
I'll forgive Hughton's safety 1st approach. But there have been definite highlights that show where Forest can go under Hughton. His Brighten side imposed themselves on this division twice. Shows what happens when you give a manager time. The right manager.
There's no sugar coating this season. But if you prepare this badly for a season, as Forest did, with dithering from the top, players given time off for a poor end to the season and bringing in 14 (largely) mediocre players. You're expecting Christ Hughton to make you top 6 with football like Norwich? Or Watford. Or Bournemouth? Both Brentford and Swansea have recuited better and stuck with it longer than Forest. They deserve to be there. Forest don't.
All the top 6 have better attacking players, especially in the no.10 position which Forest thought they could do without for half a season. (Oh yeah. They brought in a player with a hernia problem...who hadn't played in over a year.)
SA.
RE: Vote Of Confidence - Strawberry Avenger - 26-04-2021
(26-04-2021, 11:52 AM)Sniffer Dog Wrote:(26-04-2021, 11:44 AM)Widdow Wrote:(26-04-2021, 11:33 AM)Sniffer Dog Wrote: Something else we shouldn't underestimate is the psychological state of the players and management who were still at the club when this season started following on from what happened at the end of last season. The player's were absolutely psychologically ruined.
I dare say that if Sabri had stayed we would have been relegated although we will never know that for sure.
I think some are underestimating just what a very tough job Hughton had on his hands at the time when he first arrived. In the circumstances I think he's done a pretty good job to be fair to him.
I dare sat, if we recruited a different manager to CH, we may have been fighting for top 6 rather than in a relegation battle.
I dare say that if we had recruited a different manager to CH we may have been relegated.
Down. Like a brick. Or maybe we'd go down to the last game of the season and a hand of god save would save us on goal difference...
SA.
RE: Vote Of Confidence - Salvatore Matrecano - 26-04-2021
(26-04-2021, 11:36 AM)Strawberry Avenger Wrote: Who brought in the players, Sal? :P
Who did the pre-season?
Who brought in the course correcting players in Jan'?
Simple questions.
SA.
Who brought in the players? Definitely not Sabri. Well you can probably pin Bachirou on him but thats it.
Who did the pre-season? EM via Zoom?
Who brought in the course correcting players in Jan'? Hughton and Brazil thankfully and it showed.
Thing is most people on here were convinced that last summer we assembled an amazing squad capable for challenging for automatic promotion. That was deluded but I still think we have underachieved with what we have, 11th highest spending season 19/20, I suspect 7/8th highest this season.
Sure we improved although I dont think Sabri would have taken us down, we will never know. My point is has the improvement been sufficient given the resources available both in terms of results and style of play?
RE: Vote Of Confidence - Widdow - 26-04-2021
(26-04-2021, 10:52 AM)Jean_claude_killy Wrote:(26-04-2021, 09:35 AM)wassy04 Wrote:(26-04-2021, 09:18 AM)Jean_claude_killy Wrote:(26-04-2021, 08:23 AM)Salvatore Matrecano Wrote: Voted for give him the season, stability is No.1 priority. Having said that my 2nd choice would be sack him now as being preferable to another mid season change and the inevitable write off that comes with that.
Think you might be over estimating our importance if you think EM is looking at this poll though!
I doubt that he will be looking at this poll, and if he did I doubt he would be swayed by it one way or the other.
One thing which will sway his mind is the fact that he is four seasons into his ownership and so far it has cost him 184m.
He now has a manager with a record of success in this division; he needs to stick with him.
If not for the good of the Club then it is certainly for the good of his wealth.
I disagree with this attitude, why are you and others trying to abdicate responsibility. Just because EM makes the decisions doesn't mean he is swayed by fan opinion. I'm sick of fans hiding behind EM's record of sacking managers as an excuse to not back managers. (I can clearly see you are backing him here btw, that's not the point I'm making) The point is that by saying that you give others who want rid an excuse to be negative.
There is no responsibility to abdicate.
I have not come close to either hiring or firing one of our former managers; having an opinion is not the same as having responsibility.
I am firmly in the keep Hughton camp; he has done a good job so far and I cannot think of anyone more suitable for the job.
And when you look at who his detractors are, that kind of confirms things for me.
Well, one of those detractors, said we wouldnt get top 6 last season - proved right. Said when appointed CH, we would be in a relegation battle - proved right. Said the players brought in last summer were dog shit, and proved right. Said we should have sold Grabban last summer, and think if we had it may have been different season if we had a quality replacement. All CH has done is copy and paste Sabri, and got them defensively (like Sabri did last season).
His decisions on players are head scratching, he persists in Grabban as captain, yet if we want to be clear why i want a change, then, just look at the stats (dougie Freedman had a better win percentage and a far worser team).
People want him to stay cos he has done it at Newcastle and Brighton. Sometimes its horses for courses, he didnt do it a Norwich. And just cos he got them promoted, what has he done to prove he can do the same for Forest apart from having a promotion on his CV.
Lets look at the past to see if managers who have got promotion could do it for Forest...
Megson, twice promoted to Premier league. Dreadful
Karanka, Premier league promotion with Boro (has better win percentage)
Billy Davis Premier league promotion with Derby, close with Preston
Cotterill, Promotions with Notts county (to league one) and Bristol City (to CHampionship) and another better win percentage
Warburton, Brentford promotion, and was sacked at forest with a 40% win rate.
IF we wanted old skool, shouldve kept Martin O Neill, who has been far more successful than CH in his career and who in 19 games had a 42.1% win rate (with a crap team) compared to CH tragic 31% win rate
And lets not forget all the players we have that have Premier league promotions to their name as well, doesnt mean they have been any good for Forest.
RE: Vote Of Confidence - Strawberry Avenger - 26-04-2021
(26-04-2021, 12:06 PM)Salvatore Matrecano Wrote:(26-04-2021, 11:36 AM)Strawberry Avenger Wrote: Who brought in the players, Sal? :P
Who did the pre-season?
Who brought in the course correcting players in Jan'?
Simple questions.
SA.
Who brought in the players? Definitely not Sabri. Well you can probably pin Bachirou on him but thats it.
Who did the pre-season? EM via Zoom?
Who brought in the course correcting players in Jan'? Hughton and Brazil thankfully and it showed.
Thing is most people on here were convinced that last summer we assembled an amazing squad capable for challenging for automatic promotion. That was deluded but I still think we have underachieved with what we have, 11th highest spending season 19/20, I suspect 7/8th highest this season.
Sure we improved although I dont think Sabri would have taken us down, we will never know. My point is has the improvement been sufficient given the resources available both in terms of results and style of play?
So. Given the modest recruitment and course correction in January we have a team 3 points off mid-table.
Given Sabri's catastrophic pre-season and recruitment, we can't downplay the psychological trauma of the 1st six games and the abysmal form of the team post Leeds last season.
Or the injuries to Worrall and Sow (two key performers to Sabri's 'best bits') last season that were missing from a part of Hughton's incoming. And certainly improved things when they were included.
The improvement is clearly in line with the preparation of the season and how those resources were spent. Ill prepared and wastefully.
The style of play is a correlation to those things.
15 draws comes down to cup of half empty or full. I'd say if Hughton had recruited in the Summer many of those tight Derby/Swansea games would have had goals swung in our favour.
Hughton himself said he expected to be higher. But given Forest's stable of manure they handed to Hughton to clear out that's him being polite.
We're only 3 points off mid-table and 6 off the likes of Stoke who have been hanging around the play offs for most of the year. We also didn't detonate at the weekend playing them either. So Sabri's team bottled and exploded vs Stoke. And Hughton's team (Using Sabri's players) compete. Ironic. Because O'Neil himself saved Stoke from relegation last season. I'd say Hughton did as good a job as him or better. And that he's not far from Stoke, points wise, I'd say better. He's certainly closed the gap with Stoke.
I'd say that's progress. Is that sufficient? I'll gaze at my navel to find out.
SA.