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+--- Thread: Our Iberians (/showthread.php?tid=593)
RE: Our Iberians - Sniffer Dog (Admin) - 08-10-2019
(08-10-2019, 09:53 AM)Paplane Wrote:(08-10-2019, 09:39 AM)Boatsy Wrote:(08-10-2019, 08:41 AM)Duncan Mckenzie Wrote:(07-10-2019, 06:07 PM)Jean_claude_killy Wrote: The problem with Carvalho is the same one that Joe Lolley faced, and initially suffered from.
They both have had other duties placed on them; they are the first line of defence and have to put a shift in each game.
It took Joe a good few games to get into the swing of things, but he now looks as good as ever.
Missing pre-season would not have helped Carvalho's fitness levels, certainly not with his increased work load.
Class will prevail in the end and Carvalho has bags of it.
I have seen the odd glimpse of it, nothing more.
One nine out of ten performance followed by three or four six out of ten performances.
To be brutally honest for his price tag he needs to start doing more.
Hard to disagree with that assessment Duncan.
I always think with Carvalho, Benfica wouldn't have released him if they thought he was destined for greatness. They wouldn't release Semedo on a permanent for that reason.
After his injury, and him playing catchup as a result, I'm hoping he's just struggling to come to terms with what his new role is in the team. Getting injured was the worst possible scenario for him under the new manager, after the last one didn't particularly rate him.
He has undoubted quality - we've seen it, but I can't see him playing in that no10 role that AK played him in.
The problem is that we haven't seen it often enough. One flash of brilliance every 3 games is not enough I'm afraid.
RE: Our Iberians - Salvatore Matrecano - 08-10-2019
Tend to agree with this, probably more than one flash of brilliance every 3 games, more like 3 brilliant passes every game but then he is totally anonymous for the rest of it and as has been said would like to see him do a 90 min performance. We want him to dictate play, be at the heart of every forward move.
Are we being too harsh, we are obsessed with his price tag but forget he is only 22?
The other point is do you want to replace him with an Osborn type who runs non stop, at the expense of that one moment that opens a defence? To be honest that one moment is why I go to football matches.
Im as conflicted as everyone else I think!
RE: Our Iberians - TheGreenMan - 08-10-2019
People saying Carvalho’s sh*t, but at the same time stating they can’t wait to see Yates back as if he’s some kind of world beater.
Yates is just another Osborn, you need more than just a bit of enthusiasm to actually succeed at our level And what we’re actually aiming for. Right now he’s probably top half league one(and I have actually seen him play a few times).
RE: Our Iberians - Sniffer Dog (Admin) - 08-10-2019
(08-10-2019, 01:27 PM)TheGreenMan Wrote: People saying Carvalho’s sh*t, but at the same time stating they can’t wait to see Yates back as if he’s some kind of world beater.
Yates is just another Osborn, you need more than just a bit of enthusiasm to actually succeed at our level And what we’re actually aiming for. Right now he’s probably top half league one(and I have actually seen him play a few times).
Lets stick to facts, noboby has said Carvalho is shit so we can put that rubbish to bed for a start.
Secondly nobody has seen Yates play yet under Lamouchi so we cannot judge him.
Thirdly, I am sure that everyone on this forum has seen Ryan Yates play, just not for this manager we have right now who has worked wonders with other players who were wriiten off like Worrall and Watson.
RE: Our Iberians - Alf - 08-10-2019
(08-10-2019, 12:41 PM)Salvatore Matrecano Wrote: Tend to agree with this, probably more than one flash of brilliance every 3 games, more like 3 brilliant passes every game but then he is totally anonymous for the rest of it and as has been said would like to see him do a 90 min performance. We want him to dictate play, be at the heart of every forward move.
Are we being too harsh, we are obsessed with his price tag but forget he is only 22?
The other point is do you want to replace him with an Osborn type who runs non stop, at the expense of that one moment that opens a defence? To be honest that one moment is why I go to football matches.
Im as conflicted as everyone else I think!
Good summary.
I rate him, but think 13m was way too much, and that he should have been 4-6m at most.
But that's irrelavant now. At 22 he's still got bags of time to grow, and he's also a player who'll suit the Prem way more than the hustle & bustle of this league.
The key thing is finding him a position. The role AK had planned for him isn't the one we have planned now.
RE: Our Iberians - Strawberry Avenger - 08-10-2019
(08-10-2019, 01:31 PM)Sniffer Dog Wrote:(08-10-2019, 01:27 PM)TheGreenMan Wrote: People saying Carvalho’s sh*t, but at the same time stating they can’t wait to see Yates back as if he’s some kind of world beater.
Yates is just another Osborn, you need more than just a bit of enthusiasm to actually succeed at our level And what we’re actually aiming for. Right now he’s probably top half league one(and I have actually seen him play a few times).
Lets stick to facts, noboby has said Carvalho is S**t so we can put that rubbish to bed for a start.
Secondly nobody has seen Yates play yet under Lamouchi so we cannot judge him.
Thirdly, I am sure that everyone on this forum has seen Ryan Yates play, just not for this manager we have right now who has worked wonders with other players who were wriiten off like Worrall and Watson.
True, Sniffer.
Nobody can say the current Coach hasn't played Car'. He's behind fitness wise. But for £13 million, could be seeing more goals, more assists, more dominance and we're heading into the dark nights. Every Forest fan wants to see him succeed. But he'll be lucky to be worth £3-4 million at this rate of going. Caveat being, he's not fully fit. No player performs when they're not. Grabban is fitter. And he's done much better. Car's still young and could do with another 3 months in the side. And then he can't complain he's not been given a chance. He has talent but he's got to have the will to succeed.
Yates being another Osborn. That's laughable. Different type of player to start with. Osborn was a good player and is in the Premier now. Years of loyal service. Yates may not have the silky skills of Car' but he's a more progressive player and has more desire. Yates gets stuck in. He did ok in Martin's side and starting making real progressive alongside Watson. He's total effort. He's vocal. A leader. He was the best thing (for me) out of Aitor's pre-season in the previous Summer. We haven't seen him under 'The Coach' who has revitalised Watson, Worrall, Dawson and Cash at RB (a masterstroke.) Yates deserves the chance to play in a better team which, like Car' will provide a different insight into him as a player. But his effort won't be wanting.
Yates isn't fit. And Car' isn't fully fit. Perhaps we'll have a clearer picture when both are fully fit and playing in this 'better' team. They both deserve a shot this season to prove themselves. But they'll have to compete to get in the team. That's the way it should be.
SA.
RE: Our Iberians - Strawberry Avenger - 08-10-2019
(08-10-2019, 01:57 PM)Alf Wrote:(08-10-2019, 12:41 PM)Salvatore Matrecano Wrote: Tend to agree with this, probably more than one flash of brilliance every 3 games, more like 3 brilliant passes every game but then he is totally anonymous for the rest of it and as has been said would like to see him do a 90 min performance. We want him to dictate play, be at the heart of every forward move.
Are we being too harsh, we are obsessed with his price tag but forget he is only 22?
The other point is do you want to replace him with an Osborn type who runs non stop, at the expense of that one moment that opens a defence? To be honest that one moment is why I go to football matches.
Im as conflicted as everyone else I think!
Good summary.
I rate him, but think 13m was way too much, and that he should have been 4-6m at most.
But that's irrelavant now. At 22 he's still got bags of time to grow, and he's also a player who'll suit the Prem way more than the hustle & bustle of this league.
The key thing is finding him a position. The role AK had planned for him isn't the one we have planned now.
They both need a bit of time in the side. Nurturing them along. Sometimes, they'll need pulling out the side. Both Cash and Worrall have been through the young player pain barrier. Osborn had to do that. Car' has the potential to be a match winner and that one pass may lead to that goal. If he does that, he's done his job in many ways. But he's got competition from Silva now. And that is a 'GOOD THING' (TM.)
Get them (Car' and Yates) fully fit and manage them into the side. I think they'll come good. At the worst, being on the subs bench for Forest isn't a total disaster for them or Forest.
SA.
RE: Our Iberians - Alf - 08-10-2019
(08-10-2019, 03:04 PM)Strawberry Avenger Wrote:(08-10-2019, 01:57 PM)Alf Wrote:(08-10-2019, 12:41 PM)Salvatore Matrecano Wrote: Tend to agree with this, probably more than one flash of brilliance every 3 games, more like 3 brilliant passes every game but then he is totally anonymous for the rest of it and as has been said would like to see him do a 90 min performance. We want him to dictate play, be at the heart of every forward move.
Are we being too harsh, we are obsessed with his price tag but forget he is only 22?
The other point is do you want to replace him with an Osborn type who runs non stop, at the expense of that one moment that opens a defence? To be honest that one moment is why I go to football matches.
Im as conflicted as everyone else I think!
Good summary.
I rate him, but think 13m was way too much, and that he should have been 4-6m at most.
But that's irrelavant now. At 22 he's still got bags of time to grow, and he's also a player who'll suit the Prem way more than the hustle & bustle of this league.
The key thing is finding him a position. The role AK had planned for him isn't the one we have planned now.
They both need a bit of time in the side. Nurturing them along. Sometimes, they'll need pulling out the side. Both Cash and Worrall have been through the young player pain barrier. Osborn had to do that. Car' has the potential to be a match winner and that one pass may lead to that goal. If he does that, he's done his job in many ways. But he's got competition from Silva now. And that is a 'GOOD THING' (TM.)
Get them (Car' and Yates) fully fit and manage them into the side. I think they'll come good. At the worst, being on the subs bench for Forest isn't a total disaster for them or Forest.
SA.
Agreed, although I will say this, I don't think Silva is a replacement for carva, and that we need more creativity in the squad attacking-wise too. A winger or someone like Ollie Watkins could prob fill the role.
The hard part is that Carva has to go through that with a 13m price tag. Which is gonna be harder for him as folk will, rightly, expect more.
This is where recruitment has to curb it's niavity. Loans & record money buys won't get the leniency that homegrown talent cost £0 will. Development on our own, cost-free players is a given. Development on players for other clubs or ones which cost plenty is a harder sell.
RE: Our Iberians - Sniffer Dog (Admin) - 11-10-2019
(08-10-2019, 01:57 PM)Alf Wrote:(08-10-2019, 12:41 PM)Salvatore Matrecano Wrote: Tend to agree with this, probably more than one flash of brilliance every 3 games, more like 3 brilliant passes every game but then he is totally anonymous for the rest of it and as has been said would like to see him do a 90 min performance. We want him to dictate play, be at the heart of every forward move.
Are we being too harsh, we are obsessed with his price tag but forget he is only 22?
The other point is do you want to replace him with an Osborn type who runs non stop, at the expense of that one moment that opens a defence? To be honest that one moment is why I go to football matches.
Im as conflicted as everyone else I think!
Good summary.
I rate him, but think 13m was way too much, and that he should have been 4-6m at most.
But that's irrelavant now. At 22 he's still got bags of time to grow, and he's also a player who'll suit the Prem way more than the hustle & bustle of this league.
The key thing is finding him a position. The role AK had planned for him isn't the one we have planned now.
We didn't pay 13m for him and I don't care what the next accounts say. That is why we employ Sam Gordon.
RE: Our Iberians - Mad Squad - 11-10-2019
(11-10-2019, 02:22 PM)Sniffer Dog Wrote:(08-10-2019, 01:57 PM)Alf Wrote:(08-10-2019, 12:41 PM)Salvatore Matrecano Wrote: Tend to agree with this, probably more than one flash of brilliance every 3 games, more like 3 brilliant passes every game but then he is totally anonymous for the rest of it and as has been said would like to see him do a 90 min performance. We want him to dictate play, be at the heart of every forward move.
Are we being too harsh, we are obsessed with his price tag but forget he is only 22?
The other point is do you want to replace him with an Osborn type who runs non stop, at the expense of that one moment that opens a defence? To be honest that one moment is why I go to football matches.
Im as conflicted as everyone else I think!
Good summary.
I rate him, but think 13m was way too much, and that he should have been 4-6m at most.
But that's irrelavant now. At 22 he's still got bags of time to grow, and he's also a player who'll suit the Prem way more than the hustle & bustle of this league.
The key thing is finding him a position. The role AK had planned for him isn't the one we have planned now.
We didn't pay 13m for him and I don't care what the next accounts say. That is why we employ Sam Gordon.
Interesting comment Sniffer. Care to elaborate?
RE: Our Iberians - Kylos247 - 11-10-2019
Back hander ? The cost is supposedly spread over his contract. So roughly 2.5m per year.
RE: Our Iberians - zicorice - 11-10-2019
The 1st couple of games back after injury are often ok, it's the next month or so which is the tricky part as match fitness is coming back. Any pro or ex-pro will say the same. The stop start nature of this season hasn't helped since he got back, with the international breaks.
I have said it (many times) before, I truly believe that Carvalho will be worth more than we paid for him in time. I may be proved wrong, but I doubt it on this one.