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RE: Evangelos Marinakis And Co - wassy04 - 30-11-2020
(30-11-2020, 03:22 PM)Sniffer Dog Wrote: On paper I think Vrentzos and Co signed some good players in the summer and 99% of the members on here agreed at the time.
I really can't put my finger on what has gone wrong but in my opinion it's not fair or correct to put all the blame on EM and Vrentzos.
Freeman has ripped up the Championship in the past, Knockaert has ripped up the Championship in the past, Taylor has ripped up the Championship in the past, Colback should be more than good enough at this level as should Christie. These players don't just become poor players overnight and neither do players who were already here like Lolley, Figs, Ameobi and Grabban etc.
There is more to it than blaming EM and Vrentzos in my view.
I've been largely chastised for attempting to defend the signings this summer, both in terms of the amount and the strategy. As I said I before I felt the quantity of signings were required in most cases due to previous windows where we've either not signed anyone or signed short term options or random untested foreign imports who've failed.
As I said I agree with the change in strategy this summer and I hope we stick with the approach of targeting players that have experience in this league. I think they did a decent job this window of correcting previous mistakes. If the target is promotion this season then in that context they did what was required.
However I'm suggesting they need to recalibrate the mindset of we have to go up in this window and lower to expectations as its pretty difficult to go up with that one season mentality without parachute payments
RE: Evangelos Marinakis And Co - Uwantlee - 30-11-2020
(30-11-2020, 03:22 PM)Sniffer Dog Wrote: On paper I think Vrentzos and Co signed some good players in the summer and 99% of the members on here agreed at the time.
I really can't put my finger on what has gone wrong but in my opinion it's not fair or correct to put all the blame on EM and Vrentzos.
Freeman has ripped up the Championship in the past, Knockaert has ripped up the Championship in the past, Taylor has ripped up the Championship in the past, Colback should be more than good enough at this level as should Christie. These players don't just become poor players overnight and neither do players who were already here like Lolley, Figs, Ameobi and Grabban etc.
There is more to it than blaming EM and Vrentzos in my view.
Cant put a finger on it.... we added 14 players to a squad that was already too big but a squad that were starting to achieve. Ffs it's not difficult. On paper we signed good players but football is not played on paper. I have not been overly impressed with the signings gs we have made. None of them have stood out so far. In fact freeman has been nothing more than average.
People bang on about the constant change in manager but it works the same with players too. Look at the clubs that do well they dknt overhaul their squads every year. 3 or 4 players to replace leaving and improve in 1 or 2 areas is how you do it. We have signed 71??? Players since em arrived. You can not build a team like that. Players get to know each other, have a way of playing and we RIP it apart every year. Managers have very little input on signings and end up with over paid average tripe.
You say there is more to blaming em.... I say he is solely responsible as it is his club... he employed everyone within it and it all falls at his door. He should be dealing with the problems but it is becoming clear that he isn't. In fact you could say, especially with the video call to players over the summer, that he could be a part of the issue.... could be.
Some will argue that the state of the club off the field is good... so what. What use is that if we are going backwards on it. What use is it if there is no strategy or plan when making transfers. We sell 1 decent player and sign 14 average or below average players. Its shite. We are applying policies that work abroad to a team struggling in the championship. We need everyone working within the club to know the English game and that isn't the case.
I will reiterate what I have said before. I dont want em to go or sell I want him to sort the mess out. I want him to provide answers and solutions rather than let people continue in their roles unchallenged. He said he doesnt make promises he delivered...n we that isn't happening either.
It's time the club communicated with the fans it's time there were people in the club held responsible and explained the running of the club, the strategy and policies. We continually get worse on the pitch and but for half a season on decent results we are no better now than when fawaz left.
What's the plan here... get relegated... go in to admin due to stupidly high wages?.
RE: Evangelos Marinakis And Co - Username - 30-11-2020
(30-11-2020, 01:31 PM)wassy04 Wrote:(30-11-2020, 10:04 AM)Username Wrote: You are basically asking a bunch of average players, bar the odd exception, to take responsibility for being average?
The manager is doing what the manager does. Any expectation to the contrary is naive. Surely they did their homework on Hughton and knew what they were getting?
I also don’t buy this “be careful what you wish for” scaremongering that’s being perpetuated.
Yes I think this is pretty fair, basically saying if they don't overachieve they've failed.
I think the short term nature of our transfer windows is what frustrates most. Whilst its good that the investment is there (at least in some windows) the continued attempt to put together a promotion team in one season is frustrating.
On paper once again IMO the majority of the signings made sense if you're trying to get promoted this season. However given how last season ended was that a realistic goal? Would it not have been better to acknowledge how average the squad was and that we overachieved last year rather than repeatedly publicly setting playoffs as a goal.
For me this is the major issue that is costing us. Our best chance of success is building a team to have a go once every couple of years using a base of academy players to supplement the squad. Repeatedly outwardly stating the aim of promotion, building unnecessary pressure and expectation, despite not being able to compete on budget with the top sides is silly.
I want the ownership to stay and make a success of it. Hopefully they do and the stadium plans come to fruition. Just think a realignment of targets would help. Acceptance this season is gone, allow CH to plan for next season this window would give us a realistic shot of going for it next year when hopefully we can actually be there.
We'll see whether they take that approach or keep going for journeymen signings to try and achieve an unrealistic promotion charge in Jan.
If we wanted promotion this season then it’s my view (although you already know this) that the signings don’t meet the ambition.
We should NEVER permanently sign squad players.
Take Blackett for example, is he any better than Hefele or Benalouane? No, yet we’re still paying (or have paid up) our commitment to them whilst also signing Blackett. It’s absolutely bonkers.
You seem to have really changed your stance on this Wassy?
RE: Evangelos Marinakis And Co - wassy04 - 30-11-2020
(30-11-2020, 07:57 PM)Username Wrote:(30-11-2020, 01:31 PM)wassy04 Wrote:(30-11-2020, 10:04 AM)Username Wrote: You are basically asking a bunch of average players, bar the odd exception, to take responsibility for being average?
The manager is doing what the manager does. Any expectation to the contrary is naive. Surely they did their homework on Hughton and knew what they were getting?
I also don’t buy this “be careful what you wish for” scaremongering that’s being perpetuated.
Yes I think this is pretty fair, basically saying if they don't overachieve they've failed.
I think the short term nature of our transfer windows is what frustrates most. Whilst its good that the investment is there (at least in some windows) the continued attempt to put together a promotion team in one season is frustrating.
On paper once again IMO the majority of the signings made sense if you're trying to get promoted this season. However given how last season ended was that a realistic goal? Would it not have been better to acknowledge how average the squad was and that we overachieved last year rather than repeatedly publicly setting playoffs as a goal.
For me this is the major issue that is costing us. Our best chance of success is building a team to have a go once every couple of years using a base of academy players to supplement the squad. Repeatedly outwardly stating the aim of promotion, building unnecessary pressure and expectation, despite not being able to compete on budget with the top sides is silly.
I want the ownership to stay and make a success of it. Hopefully they do and the stadium plans come to fruition. Just think a realignment of targets would help. Acceptance this season is gone, allow CH to plan for next season this window would give us a realistic shot of going for it next year when hopefully we can actually be there.
We'll see whether they take that approach or keep going for journeymen signings to try and achieve an unrealistic promotion charge in Jan.
If we wanted promotion this season then it’s my view (although you already know this) that the signings don’t meet the ambition.
We should NEVER permanently sign squad players.
Take Blackett for example, is he any better than Hefele or Benalouane? No, yet we’re still paying (or have paid up) our commitment to them whilst also signing Blackett. It’s absolutely bonkers.
You seem to have really changed your stance on this Wassy?
Not changed just trying to better articulate it. My opinion has always been that the mistakes were made in previous windows and that the squad we had last year overachieved so would take a big overhaul to improve it. Hence my continued defence of some of the signings we've made.
In another thread I explained I felt we needed at least 8 signings to fill previous gaps and replace cash/Watson. Never denied that we've made some weird and questionable signings. Just don't like the 14 signings figure that gets bandied around when I feel most of those were required. (Blackett, fred, cafu etc are obvious examples where they were not necessary)
I do agree though, it wasn't worth signing all those squad players to replace existing bad squad players.
I do think Knockaert, Taylor, Colback, Mckenna were good signings. Plus Soh will hopefully be good. I still think Ioannou could come good too.
Arter and Christie look really poor signings though. Hard to even name the rest!
RE: Evangelos Marinakis And Co - Sabricadabra - 01-12-2020
(30-11-2020, 03:22 PM)Sniffer Dog Wrote: On paper I think Vrentzos and Co signed some good players in the summer and 99% of the members on here agreed at the time.
I really can't put my finger on what has gone wrong but in my opinion it's not fair or correct to put all the blame on EM and Vrentzos.
Freeman has ripped up the Championship in the past, Knockaert has ripped up the Championship in the past, Taylor has ripped up the Championship in the past, Colback should be more than good enough at this level as should Christie. These players don't just become poor players overnight and neither do players who were already here like Lolley, Figs, Ameobi and Grabban etc.
There is more to it than blaming EM and Vrentzos in my view.
I agree mate. There’s not much wrong with the players signed, and players like Christie and Colback have performed better than some are making out. McKenna is the best signing in many years, and Taylor is a good striker. Knockaert hasn’t delivered yet but he is the only one who looks to have the quality to unlock the better teams like Bournemouth and Swansea. I don’t claim to be as good a judge as Hodge, far from it, but what I see is a team lacking in confidence. As soon as they go a goal down the heads drop immediately. The humiliating collapse at the end of last season has knocked the stuffing out of the club, which unless we have short memories was on the rise and in the top six for month after month beforehand. Added to this is the loss of the best right back in the Championship (nothing NFFC could do about that), our top scorer being out injured, and our best centre back of last season out injured.
Hughton will get it right.
RE: Evangelos Marinakis And Co - Sniffer Dog (Admin) - 01-12-2020
(30-11-2020, 08:00 PM)Username Wrote:(30-11-2020, 03:22 PM)Sniffer Dog Wrote: On paper I think Vrentzos and Co signed some good players in the summer and 99% of the members on here agreed at the time.
I really can't put my finger on what has gone wrong but in my opinion it's not fair or correct to put all the blame on EM and Vrentzos.
Freeman has ripped up the Championship in the past, Knockaert has ripped up the Championship in the past, Taylor has ripped up the Championship in the past, Colback should be more than good enough at this level as should Christie. These players don't just become poor players overnight and neither do players who were already here like Lolley, Figs, Ameobi and Grabban etc.
There is more to it than blaming EM and Vrentzos in my view.
I can’t agree.
The blame lies firmly with Vrentzos.
If Marinakis is so wedded to Vrentzos that they come as a pair then by extension the criticism rightly passes to him too.
Fair play, the signing of McKenna and to a much lesser extent Taylor should be lauded.
Freeman and Knockaert are on loan so I’ve no issues with those.
We will have to agree to disagree then.
Once the players step onto the pitch it's all down to them.
Is Vrentzos to blame for missed chances By Grabban and Guerrero against Rotherham and Barnsley that cost us points?
Is Vrentzos to blame for that pathetic piece of defending against swansea on Saturday that cost us points?
Of course he's not but lets blame Vrentzos anyway if it makes you feel better.
The blame must be shared. Vrentzos is man enough to take some of the blame I am sure of that and the manager and players have to take some of the blame too.
RE: Evangelos Marinakis And Co - Sabricadabra - 01-12-2020
First team managers are paid to take the blame. Getting the team to perform is their responsibility.
Did Vrentzos chuck away the season in the final six games last season?
But if people want a scapegoat for us not being in the top 6, then the man at the top is always where the buck stops. EM is the top man, so he is to blame.
RE: Evangelos Marinakis And Co - Sniffer Dog (Admin) - 01-12-2020
(01-12-2020, 09:08 AM)Sabricadabra Wrote:(30-11-2020, 03:22 PM)Sniffer Dog Wrote: On paper I think Vrentzos and Co signed some good players in the summer and 99% of the members on here agreed at the time.
I really can't put my finger on what has gone wrong but in my opinion it's not fair or correct to put all the blame on EM and Vrentzos.
Freeman has ripped up the Championship in the past, Knockaert has ripped up the Championship in the past, Taylor has ripped up the Championship in the past, Colback should be more than good enough at this level as should Christie. These players don't just become poor players overnight and neither do players who were already here like Lolley, Figs, Ameobi and Grabban etc.
There is more to it than blaming EM and Vrentzos in my view.
I agree mate. There’s not much wrong with the players signed, and players like Christie and Colback have performed better than some are making out. McKenna is the best signing in many years, and Taylor is a good striker. Knockaert hasn’t delivered yet but he is the only one who looks to have the quality to unlock the better teams like Bournemouth and Swansea. I don’t claim to be as good a judge as Hodge, far from it, but what I see is a team lacking in confidence. As soon as they go a goal down the heads drop immediately. The humiliating collapse at the end of last season has knocked the stuffing out of the club, which unless we have short memories was on the rise and in the top six for month after month beforehand. Added to this is the loss of the best right back in the Championship (nothing NFFC could do about that), our top scorer being out injured, and our best centre back of last season out injured.
Hughton will get it right.
This ^^
RE: Evangelos Marinakis And Co - Username - 01-12-2020
(01-12-2020, 09:08 AM)Sniffer Dog Wrote:(30-11-2020, 08:00 PM)Username Wrote:(30-11-2020, 03:22 PM)Sniffer Dog Wrote: On paper I think Vrentzos and Co signed some good players in the summer and 99% of the members on here agreed at the time.
I really can't put my finger on what has gone wrong but in my opinion it's not fair or correct to put all the blame on EM and Vrentzos.
Freeman has ripped up the Championship in the past, Knockaert has ripped up the Championship in the past, Taylor has ripped up the Championship in the past, Colback should be more than good enough at this level as should Christie. These players don't just become poor players overnight and neither do players who were already here like Lolley, Figs, Ameobi and Grabban etc.
There is more to it than blaming EM and Vrentzos in my view.
I can’t agree.
The blame lies firmly with Vrentzos.
If Marinakis is so wedded to Vrentzos that they come as a pair then by extension the criticism rightly passes to him too.
Fair play, the signing of McKenna and to a much lesser extent Taylor should be lauded.
Freeman and Knockaert are on loan so I’ve no issues with those.
We will have to agree to disagree then.
Once the players step onto the pitch it's all down to them.
Is Vrentzos to blame for missed chances By Grabban and Guerrero against Rotherham and Barnsley that cost us points?
Is Vrentzos to blame for that pathetic piece of defending against swansea on Saturday that cost us points?
Of course he's not but lets blame Vrentzos anyway if it makes you feel better.
The blame must be shared. Vrentzos is man enough to take some of the blame I am sure of that and the manager and players have to take some of the blame too.
In answer to your question: Yes.
If we sign average players then expect average results in terms of taking / missing chances and defending / clean sheets / mistakes.
I don’t think it’s about being man enough. It’s about being culpable and responsible for the outcome. He’s not the devil incarnate in my eyes and I sincerely hope we do better in the January window.
RE: Evangelos Marinakis And Co - Sniffer Dog (Admin) - 01-12-2020
With respect I think you are missing the point mate.
Less than average players should still have buried those chances. I have seen pub players score from more difficult opportunities. Plus less than avarage players defend much better than we did in the build up to Swansea's goal.
Signing average players as you call them (I mentioned Grabban, Guerrero and Knockaert in my posts, plus Mckenna was part of the defensive comedy for the Swansea goal) should still be scoring those chances that were not taken and shouldn't be defending like they had never been on a Football pitch before.
RE: Evangelos Marinakis And Co - Username - 01-12-2020
You can't believe that to be true.
Players in this division do not regularly convert chances in those positions, at least the average ones don't, hence why they are average. We see it week after week, year after year, supporting Forest! Average players at this level do tend to hit runs of form, where chances will go in but can't maintain that forever due to many variables, the main one being that they are, ultimately, average. The better the player the more likely they are to convert the opportunity, their to goal to shot ratio improves, and they play at a higher level.
On your final point I was generalising and don't consider McKenna to be average, although I think he has got away largely unscathed in terms of criticism for the Swansea goal compared to those around him. I'm on the fence regarding Knockaert and have commented on him and the feedback from my Fulham supporting mate, we've seen players with his ability in the past rapidly deteoriate (after injury, or something worse, Zack Clough is a good example of this by all accounts). I think we rode our luck with Grabban last year and he performed above his level in some ways, not just for his goals return but his contribution to the Team. I believe that we're paying for that now and Taylor is showing how hard it is to replicate that kind of contribution on a regular basis.
RE: Evangelos Marinakis And Co - ThePromisedLand - 01-12-2020
And - if things aren’t what they should be behind the scenes - the motivation to give that last 5% may not be there. I find my mind going back to the comments of Steve Hodge on Sunday.