So far, So Good?

[BadDog]

yes some will say he has only had 5 or 6 games

others will say the initial fractures and fault line goes back to around Oct 2016, he got an awesome draw, away at Arsenal who were top, scoring and generally winning and playing with confidence

however that creditable, awesome draw was sandwiched between 2 losses.

the 'not usually winning' has been evident right back to AK's PL season, ie 11 ish wins out of 55 plus games

the main problem being AK adamantly refuses to set up offensively or change anything hence he is really predictable and instills confidence in opponents imo

it is always going to 2 defensive midfielders and 1 striker, rain or shine, Bury or Barcelona

Middlesboro really wanted AK to succeed but he exasperated the life out of them, they would of settled for survival but they couldn't see AK's blinkered faulty strategy working out, he had a good squad there worth probably more than £60m

He made 47 plus signings with them.  24 so far with us.

Basically AK has managed back to back wins extremely rarely in his last 55 games, maybe twice or less

Personally and maybe unfairly I took quite a dislike to AK after the Hull cup game we crashed out of, I concluded then that he is cheque book, revolving door, harsh to say but I felt back then he would be '***** on the academy' , he hasn't really got a record in developing youth.

The cracks run deeper, he doesn't really do the arm round the shoulder, if he feels let down according to I think Craig Hignett who was assistant to him in good times, he can alienate that player, besides this he has deep faith in an analytical strategy

Surely if a manager is analytical, uses all the stats available why doesn't he change tactics 3 5 2, 4 4 2, 4 5 1 whatever

I feel disappointed BB is going but like I said, I felt the writing on the wall was his 20 games here last season

I wondered about moral, team spirit, the band of brothers type bonds that can help win games, I prefer the smaller squad, I like youngsters to be introduced with good timing into the team though I am not opposed to loans out

Huge squad upheavel and a lot of loans in can be detrimental.  also players coming from far and wide it can be difficult to for them to settle here

Ok Eric wasn't the best player, didn't fit the system, also BB he's not broken any records but these were players who loved playing here and helped others feel part of a family

I think AK was probably put under pressure to get into the play offs when he arrived in Jan so he couldn't focus on developing and learning about what he had here, hence the 10 signings

The 10 signings then was too many, too soon.  

In hindsight I genuinely believe he could of made as few as 5 really good quality signings over the last 8 months

24 seems a bit ridiculous, seems we were going for it, ***** or bust this season?  

The problem in my head is probably more to do with 'modern' football though more a combination of a relatively dour persona manager, negative predictable tactics, revolving door, neglect of the academy

The main point is, the cracks were in plain view prior to AK arriving, the departure from Boro, the 47 signings, the alienating, the analytics, the record of 11 wins in the last 2 years.

This chat has been really about lack of results and why this trend is unlikely to improve.

For me I would be happy with entertainment, excitement and progress but maybe modern football isn't about any of this

Sorry I am a bit depressed, in fact I have been since the Hull cup game January.  I want to love my club but this AK is making it so difficult for me.

Can't argue with any of that mate.

[the jock]

I feel very dejected after tonight

[Strawberry Avenger]

yes some will say he has only had 5 or 6 games

others will say the initial fractures and fault line goes back to around Oct 2016, he got an awesome draw, away at Arsenal who were top, scoring and generally winning and playing with confidence

however that creditable, awesome draw was sandwiched between 2 losses.

the 'not usually winning' has been evident right back to AK's PL season, ie 11 ish wins out of 55 plus games

the main problem being AK adamantly refuses to set up offensively or change anything hence he is really predictable and instills confidence in opponents imo

it is always going to 2 defensive midfielders and 1 striker, rain or shine, Bury or Barcelona

Middlesboro really wanted AK to succeed but he exasperated the life out of them, they would of settled for survival but they couldn't see AK's blinkered faulty strategy working out, he had a good squad there worth probably more than £60m

He made 47 plus signings with them.  24 so far with us.

Basically AK has managed back to back wins extremely rarely in his last 55 games, maybe twice or less

Personally and maybe unfairly I took quite a dislike to AK after the Hull cup game we crashed out of, I concluded then that he is cheque book, revolving door, harsh to say but I felt back then he would be '***** on the academy' , he hasn't really got a record in developing youth.

The cracks run deeper, he doesn't really do the arm round the shoulder, if he feels let down according to I think Craig Hignett who was assistant to him in good times, he can alienate that player, besides this he has deep faith in an analytical strategy

Surely if a manager is analytical, uses all the stats available why doesn't he change tactics 3 5 2, 4 4 2, 4 5 1 whatever

I feel disappointed BB is going but like I said, I felt the writing on the wall was his 20 games here last season

I wondered about moral, team spirit, the band of brothers type bonds that can help win games, I prefer the smaller squad, I like youngsters to be introduced with good timing into the team though I am not opposed to loans out

Huge squad upheavel and a lot of loans in can be detrimental.  also players coming from far and wide it can be difficult to for them to settle here

Ok Eric wasn't the best player, didn't fit the system, also BB he's not broken any records but these were players who loved playing here and helped others feel part of a family

I think AK was probably put under pressure to get into the play offs when he arrived in Jan so he couldn't focus on developing and learning about what he had here, hence the 10 signings

The 10 signings then was too many, too soon.  

In hindsight I genuinely believe he could of made as few as 5 really good quality signings over the last 8 months

24 seems a bit ridiculous, seems we were going for it, ***** or bust this season?  

The problem in my head is probably more to do with 'modern' football though more a combination of a relatively dour persona manager, negative predictable tactics, revolving door, neglect of the academy

The main point is, the cracks were in plain view prior to AK arriving, the departure from Boro, the 47 signings, the alienating, the analytics, the record of 11 wins in the last 2 years.

This chat has been really about lack of results and why this trend is unlikely to improve.

For me I would be happy with entertainment, excitement and progress but maybe modern football isn't about any of this

Sorry I am a bit depressed, in fact I have been since the Hull cup game January.  I want to love my club but this AK is making it so difficult for me.

That makes interesting reading.  I can see what you're getting at.  It's not about agreeing or disagreeing in my mind.  It's about time.  Forest need to actually stick with someone.  Something.  Give it time to blossom.

The proof in the pudding at Forest is whether he gets the time...and all managers need time.  But they increasingly get less of it.  He did get Boro' into the play offs and then promoted.  That's what Forest have bought into.  They knew the style of manager he was in doing so.

However, Forest's problem with managers is that they don't stick them.  In the case of Aitor, it took him two and half years to do that with Boro'.  Aitor isn't even a year into his Forest reign?  He's had less than 8 months with 'his' players, a scramble/panic window in Jan' and a meticulous Summer window.  Teams like Boro' and Leeds have been building for longer.  Wigan have momentum.  Forest haven't got any momentum because they were avoiding relegation last time round.  This season it's not even been a month playing Championship football.

Teams take time to develop...mature piece by piece.  Forest are unbeaten.  They haven't played the champaign football they almost blew WBA away with.  They've been sussed in the last three games by high press high temp and physical sides.  Any master of analytics would tell you that the Championship is all about the 'Robust but can play a bit.'

Check book manager?  If it was as easy as spending £25 million then any manager with funds could get promoted.  Football isn't.  It's arcane magic.  Alchemy.  Which way is the right way?  Which formation?  Which players?  Which blend of them to make a 'team.'  The squad on paper sounds good...but how will Portuguese youngsters adapt to the Championship in practice.  Will Grabban get an achilles injury after signing for 6 million?  Will Bre' go for £8 million?  Is Watson finished..?  Do Forest have a DCM in that context?  Do they need a more progressive CM to push Geddy?

So is the building of the team finished?  Not if you have 1 fit striker in the 18 who is 35.  Not if Watson is finished.  That means you have two players short of where you need to be.  That means Forest aren't going to get top 6 then.  Not if they don't have depth in the striker dept or a CM that can drive the team.  Funnily enough, those are the positions Forest have struggled in so far this season and it's been targeted by teams in the last 3 games.

1 is an off day.  2 can be unlucky.  3 is a pattern.  Forest have played more than 3 games!  Will ten or 15 games tell us more of the same or will it start to click?

Forest have the off field team to course correct the playing staff by adding loans and selling Academy players if they are not ready to drive the team to promotion.  (Ben' may go to Blackburn and score goals to promoted them.  That's football.)  But Forest aren't playing in a way that supports him or Soudani as a striker.  So Forest need to get a striker who does fit into the style of play.  Aitor has only brought in one striker over the Summer.  It's not enough as the absence of Grabban (injured) showed today.

I'm not happy about the mistakes.  I'm not happy being battered by Reading, Wigan and Birmingham.  3 ordinary teams.  One of whom have momentum.  (Are a team and have built on their success.)

Forest need to get some momentum.  They are building towards that.  Very different to Wolves, Cardiff, Fulham, Leeds or Boro'.

Though that may be of little comfort to those that went and saw what was on offer today.  Frustrating.

Forest need to address that DCM/CM area and the Striker dept.  If Ben' isn't going to play (and if he wasn't in the Bury 18 then why would he?) and he's off, then the greater good of the team comes into it.  I don't see Ben' or Worrall as part of a promotion chasing team.  They weren't last year...they seem to need games to develop.  Doesn't seem that's going to happen at Forest.

SA.

[PsychoStanleyStone]

Sorry I am a bit depressed

Alchemy

SA.

Thank you Strawbs for your reply, I appreciate it is a mystery ... Alchemy and frustrating

[Strawberry Avenger]

np, mate.

Today, FRUSTRATING, I couldn't believe Forest were getting utterly cremated in the 1st half by a 'so-so' Birmingham side that avoided relegation. But that's the Championship. WBA got beat today. But that's Forest's 3rd horror show in succession.

We didn't get beat at the end of the day and Forest have a stubborn quality that will come in handy over the season.

Need more steel, need more quality in defence, CM and striker dept. (And is that LB, Robinson the final solution at LB?)

Outmuscled in defense, slow, outmuscled and ponderous at DCM, and an ageing rocker up front.

Time & Alchemy. Yes. But Forest are still missing a couple of pieces. It looks like Bre' will be sacrificed to get them.

That, too, is frustrating. But maybe a necessary evil for Forest to progress.

SA.

[Spangles]

Are you classicalrob?

Without a shadow of doubt.
Was just about to post ....Hi Rob ...when I saw your post.
May as well ban him now. :D

[woody]

We can and will all lament over the latest missfiring performance. Everyone will have an answer for what is going wrong. Yeah, its incredibly frustrating after a close season of so much optimism and hope and the brilliant numbers that are turning out at the CG right now. But there is one man and one man alone who knows or will be forming a plan of action as a consequence of what we are seeing out there on the playing field. Step forward Mr Marinakis. Perhaps Aitor is not afraid of the consequences but a sacking now would do much to harm his CV and any future ambitions he might have. Marinakis is not known for his patience. I have the feeling much like the fans last night, he will be pacing his office in anger possibly giving an instruction to start the search for potential successors. He's not daft and if the football remains as disjointed and ineffectial as it has been for the first few games of the season then its quite likely he will be preparing Karanka's pay off before the season become irretrievable. Personally, Im not a fan of the rapid hiring and firing policy so many of todays foreign club owners employ. It would be yet another wasted season and playing staff turnover which must place Forest fans at the top of the list for fans who have seen the largest amount of different players play for their club over the last ten years.

SO, Marinakis has a couple of choices. Fire him and start again or stick with him and see out a two year plan. Marinakis apparently charged into the referees changing room the other night when Olympiakos played Burnley demanding to know why his team were denied a number of penalty appeals in the first half. Does he sound like a tolerant and reasoned man to you all? I fear Karanka's days are numbered unless he turns things round pronto. 5 more games? Altenatively, he can chat with each ref at half time.

[wassy04]

I disagree with one point by psychostanleystone, we desperately needed to overhaul the squad completely. We’ve had the same squad for years and they’ve largely finished around lower mid table towards relegation. This was never a case of underachievement, this is just the natural level of these players. Anything above was an overachievement, I would say in the early matches this season that I’ve seen the weakest links are still the players left over from that reign.

Always going to be difficult to build a new team from scratch and get them playing straight away. The main worry for me is just the tactics we’re employing we seemed to be a lot of long balls. Also Watson/Colback as a pairing just doesn’t work.

Anyone know when gueddy is due back?

[PsychoStanleyStone]

I disagree with one point by psychostanleystone, we desperately needed to overhaul the squad completely. 

this overhaul, it is a seemingly difficult, potentially impossible, desperately mystical process.

An Alchemistical other dimensional realm seems to be needed to be sought, a virtual reality parallel universe shrouded in smoke and fire and mirrors.

how doth one 'overhaul'?  over how long?  where do you start?  Is it complete?  10%?  60%?  1%?  99%?

In depths of sleep in pitch darkness the voice, the True Alchemist says

They say Rome wasn't built in a day, but I wasn't on that particular job.

[Strawberry Avenger]

I disagree with one point by psychostanleystone, we desperately needed to overhaul the squad completely. 

this overhaul, it is a seemingly difficult, potentially impossible, desperately mystical process.

An Alchemistical other dimensional realm seems to be needed to be sought, a virtual reality parallel universe shrouded in smoke and fire and mirrors.

how doth one 'overhaul'?  over how long?  where do you start?  Is it complete?  10%?  60%?  1%?  99%?

In depths of sleep in pitch darkness the voice, the True Alchemist says

They say Rome wasn't built in a day, but I wasn't on that particular job.

:cool:

SA.

[wassy04]

I disagree with one point by psychostanleystone, we desperately needed to overhaul the squad completely. 

this overhaul, it is a seemingly difficult, potentially impossible, desperately mystical process.

An Alchemistical other dimensional realm seems to be needed to be sought, a virtual reality parallel universe shrouded in smoke and fire and mirrors.

how doth one 'overhaul'?  over how long?  where do you start?  Is it complete?  10%?  60%?  1%?  99%?

In depths of sleep in pitch darkness the voice, the True Alchemist says

They say Rome wasn't built in a day, but I wasn't on that particular job.

Yeah that’s pretty much what I was saying....

Seriously though I think it needed to be done. Now to just a case of how quickly can you get everyone up to speed. Personally I would settle on one team and play them every week as I reckon that’s the quickest way of doing it.

[Alf]

I disagree with one point by psychostanleystone, we desperately needed to overhaul the squad completely. 

this overhaul, it is a seemingly difficult, potentially impossible, desperately mystical process.

An Alchemistical other dimensional realm seems to be needed to be sought, a virtual reality parallel universe shrouded in smoke and fire and mirrors.

how doth one 'overhaul'?  over how long?  where do you start?  Is it complete?  10%?  60%?  1%?  99%?

In depths of sleep in pitch darkness the voice, the True Alchemist says

They say Rome wasn't built in a day, but I wasn't on that particular job.

Amen.

Every year alway hear is "clear out the deadwood", "overhaul" etc.

Until the club build a solid foundation to start with, players can come & go with nothing to attach themselves too, and act like the disposable mercineries they are employed as.

Again, it's another reason why including youth players in the side is a big plus, as there's already some foundation & attachment developed there.